The Spirit of Ma’at - Vol 1 No. 9

Relationships

and the

Power of

Gentle Ways

an interview with

Bob Allen

by Claudette Melchizedek

Bob Allen is a gentle, soft-spoken man with a wonderful southern drawl and a very colorful way of expressing himself. As a horse trainer, Bob has learned that non-violent methods of training horses produce positive reactions. Bob has also learned that this same understanding can be used with just about everyone, from dogs and kids to husbands and wives. His wisdom can have far-reaching effects in our relationships.

Bob has a ranch in New Mexico that he is setting up for retreats, where parents and children, husbands and wives can come to learn. Bob and his helpers will be teaching nonviolence and harmony through showing people how to work with the horses - showing them how their actions are causing reactions, not only with the horse, but with each other.

Everybody knows how to make war to get things done. But we're trying to teach people how to make peace to get things done. It doesn't come naturally, either. Everyone knows how to make a horse afraid or mean or mad. Everyone knows how to make a child afraid, or mad and upset. That's easy. We're born with that ability. To do what I'm talking about, we're going to have to learn. -Bob Allen

Claudette: Bob, I understand the way you work with horses and humans is quite unusual. How does it differ from other methodologies?

Bob Allen: Our methodology is unusual because we use nature's way of communication to get the results we are trying to achieve. We set up a path of least resistance, and let the horse find the way on his own. The path of least resistance just happens to be the thing we're asking him to do. For instance, let's say we are trying to catch a horse. Usually, he'd be running around the corral not wanting to be caught - so we will allow him to run and get away until he stops and comes to us on his own.

So in other words, I try to get my idea to become his idea versus making him accept what I am asking him to do. I could run him into a corner, and capture him - but he would feel just like a kidnap victim. He would try to escape or get away or maybe even hurt me. But when he makes the decision to stop, looks at me, and comes to me, then it's his decision. Then he will be in a more open, willing, frame of mind.

Claudette: I remember when I was a kid we used the words ''breaking'' a horse.

Bob: Now we call it ''starting'' horses, or ''educating'' them.

The unique thing about our program is that you don't really have to work on the horse as much as you have to work on yourself.

Claudette: When you and I were youngsters this was not the traditional way of working with a horse. When did you discover this method?

Bob: It was when I was up in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, as a matter of fact. It was 1983. I was 22 years old, and I was watching a man who understood this concept rather well. I immediately knew that this was something that I wanted to learn and master. So I've been doing this for 18 years now.

What we do works so simply, and it's so fast. And not only can it be applied to horses, it can be applied to children, dogs, cats - any type of animal or human. With children for instance, you're never trying to punish them - you're getting them to figure out what you want them to do and allowing them to come to the decision to do it on their own.

Claudette: Can you give me an example?

Bob: One of our concepts is, ''Make the wrong things difficult, and the right things easy.'' You don't make it hard or harsh or anything like that. You fix it up, and allow them to find what you're asking them to do.

Say a horse doesn't want to go in a trailer, for instance. What most people try to do is to cram or shove them in the trailer when they don't want to go.

I tell people, if you can get his mind in that trailer, his body will follow. The way you do that is, every time he tries to go to the right of the trailer, you let him bump the end of the lead rope, and then he'll come back and go to the left of the trailer. You may repeat this 5, or 10, or 20 times - you never know. Ultimately, you leave his head pointed right in that trailer, and after a while he'll say okay I might as well go in. The trick is, you don't try to force him in. You try to do what we call, ''Fix it up and let him find it.''

''Fixing it up'' means every time he gets done doing whatever he's doing, his nose is pointed right at the open door of that trailer.

Claudette: So he pretty much just gives in?

Bob: No. He makes the decision to try it, and ultimately he ends up going in.

One of our sayings is, ''Allow them to do whatever they have to do until they no longer feel that they have to do it.''

With a horse that bucks, for instance, we allow him to buck until he no longer feels like he has to do it.

Here's an example with a child, my own son. I remember a time when he was smaller (he's 10 now) he used to like to go to McDonalds to the Playland. When we went there, I noticed that a lot of other parents were having problems getting their children to cooperate. They'd buy their food and sit down, and they'd say to the kids, ''Okay, you can't play until you eat your food.'' And the kids would take two or three bites and run off and play. By the time they got done playing, their food was cold and no good, and they were still hungry. Then the parents would practically have to drag them out, because the kids hadn't made up their minds to leave.

Another one of our sayings is, ''If whatever you are doing isn't working, do the opposite.'' So my wife and I decided to do something different. We said, ''You can play all you want in the Playland but we're not going to buy your food until you're ready to come out.'' And that immediately worked. The first time it took about 20 minutes, the second time it took 15, the next time it took 5 minutes - the fourth time it took maybe two minutes and he was ready to eat and leave.

It was just the way we presented it to him. We say, ''For every action you make, you create a reaction.'' And if you're getting a negative reaction with what you're doing, whether it is with a dog, a cat, a horse, or a child, then we say, ''Adjust your actions so that you begin to get a positive reaction.''

It took us a couple of months to realize we had to do something different at McDonalds, for example. Before that, we were doing the same things as the other parents. Once we switched and told our son we were not going to get the food until he was ready to go - then it became his idea, and it was over in minutes. It got to the point, after about four times, that he didn't want to go back. It isn't even an issue anymore.

Another thing we see with children and parents many times is that when their child cries the parent goes over and picks them up.

But if it is not an emergency, if you've changed their diaper and everything's okay - then we suggest you allow them to cry until they no longer feel like they have to do it.

Many parents say, ''Oh, I don't want to do that.'' But after two or three times, the child begins to understand that crying is not a good response and it is not getting them what they want. Then the child begins to look to solution versus reaction.

You know, when I was a child, my dad told me, ''Hey, you want to cry, come over here, and I'll whip your butt, and I'll give you something to cry about.''

Now we say, ''Hey, you want to cry, that's fine. Walk over there about 100 feet by that truck and just get it on. We'll be over here having Kool-Aid and cookies, and whenever you decide you've had enough of that, then come on back and get your Kool-Aid and cookies.''

We don't want them to stuff their emotion - we're not trying to shame them for their emotion. We're saying, ''You can have your emotion, but just take it over there. Just give us a little break from it and take it over there. You can have it all you want to.''

Sometimes when a child is having a tantrum and really gets mad, I'll say, ''Is that all you got?'' And they'll just give it everything they have. But you know, when they get done they are calm and relaxed. There's no hard feelings or brooding where they stay mad for two or three hours, or whatever their program is. It's just a solid, positive response at the end.

Claudette: So that's assuming you, as a person, can step back and not be personally involved with the outcome.

Bob: Exactly. You see, that's another thing. You are personally involved with the outcome, but you're not going to get emotionally attached.

What happens normally when a child or a horse gets very emotional, we tend to join up with that emotion. But what we have to do is back up and allow them to do what they feel they have to do until they no longer feel like they have to do it.

You see, that's what happens with us humans. We get hooked in to the emotion, and then we don't know what to do. The child is messed up, we're messed up, everybody's messed up.

When a child cries, say, ''Okay, you can cry all you want to - just go to the next room. And when you get done, come out.'' Not, ''Get the hell out of here, or I'm going to slap you.'' Because then you've created a war, or a contest. Anytime you create a contest with a child, a horse, or a dog, they're going to win. They are much more tenacious than we are. So we never get into a contest with anything. We allow the situation to work itself through.

Claudette: Do you ever work with inner city kids?

Bob: We've had some kids that were kind of on the tough track. You take these tough individuals that are really cocky and street smart and have been talking trash and trying to be macho, and you let them work with a horse. That horse will teach them to be humble - even the toughest guy in town. If there is a horse bucking five feet off the ground all over the pen, and you say, ''Okay, son (or young lady), come on in and let's ride this horse,'' that's a little intimidating. That's a little humbling. We ask them to back up their talk with some action!

And you're always going to allow them to work things out. Once the person gets into the position where they have to back up their talk with some action, they kind of paint themselves into a corner. They've been acting really macho and tough, and all of a sudden you're saying, ''Okay, let's see how macho you are. Lets see you ride this little horse.'' It changes things. Then you're having to talk them into it - telling them it's going to be okay, it's going to be all right. We have some horses that buck five feet off the ground, and 15 minutes later we're riding them around the pen with no problem. This happens if the kid follows directions. The moment they fail to follow directions they can land on their heads.

These kids find out that if a person wants to change their life or really wants to learn and do things about their situation, they can do it.

Claudette: I can take everything you're saying and apply this to husband and wife situations.

Bob: It can be applied to any relationship.

We say, ''Everybody knows how to make war to get things done.'' But we're trying to teach people how to make peace to get things done. It doesn't come naturally, either. Everyone knows how to make a horse afraid or mean or mad. Everyone knows how to make a child afraid, or mad and upset. That's easy. We're born with that ability. To do what I'm talking about, we're going to have to learn.

If we say, ''It's my way or the highway'' - if you respond that way with a horse, you'll be on the highway, and the horse will be going his own way. With a human, they'll act like everything is okay to your face, and all of the sudden they'll be conking you on the head.

Claudette: I'm aware that horses can be deeply empathic and sensitive to the person that's working with them. How did that instinct develop in horses?

Bob: Its self-preservation. They had to adjust to fit their environment. If they weren't that way, there wouldn't be any of them around - they'd be eaten up.

Somewhere along the line, we humans got fear and intimidation mixed up with trust and respect. We think that the more we can intimidate or create fear in a horse or child, or paint them into a corner, the more they are going to be respectful. It's just the opposite. They're going to be brooding and brooding, and one day they can blow up and hurt someone. This is true of a horse or a child.

Claudette: How do you discipline or adjust behavior.

Bob: You adjust behavior by allowing them to figure out that what they are doing isn't working and the only thing that is going to work for them happens to be what you want them to do. You constantly have to adjust your actions. When people say, ''I've got to punish this child or punish this horse,'' I know that punishment isn't the answer. I tell them that if punishment were the answer, all our prisons and our jails would be empty. But they are building prisons every day and trying to find money to build more of them. That's our definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, even though you keep getting the same negative response.

Claudette: So let's say a child is extremely violent and likes to break things. What I'm hearing you say is that you place them in a situation where this is okay.

Bob: Take them to the county dump and tell them, ''Tear up everything you can find out here.'' It may take you eight hours and you might have to do it two or three days in a row. But I guarantee you, by letting them wear themselves out and allowing them to do whatever they feel they have to do until they no longer feel like they have to do it, they're going to change and start taking a different position.

Claudette: That's fascinating. I like this idea a lot.

Bob: It works perfectly. But there again, you don't work on the child, you work on what you're doing and what you can come up with, you see.

Claudette: So it's about being creative with yourself. And it also sounds as though you're going to be doing a lot of inner reflection.

Bob: Oh, exactly. That's another challenge for the human. We don't want to inner-reflect, because when we start looking inside we see a bunch of dumb stuff going on - you know what I mean. But if you can get past that, it will start changing. That's the hardest part. It is what I was talking about earlier. We never have to work on the child; we never have to work on the horse or the animal to get the change. We have to work on what we're doing that is causing the reaction, positive or negative. Once you learn to change and adapt your responses or your actions, you can begin to change and control the reaction on the other side.

But what most people do is, they try to make the child or the horse or the monkey or the dog make all the changes, while they make none. Does that make sense? When we deal with horses, the horse isn't going to change his response until we change our response. We say, ''Whether it is the horse, the child, the dog, or the monkey, he's living what he's learned and he's living it the way he learned it.''

You can take horses that are out of their mind, that are nervous, scared and all shook up - ones that have been like that for years. And within, say, 60 minutes or less, in some cases, you've got them calm, you've got them relaxed. You've got them totally willing to do what you're asking them to do in a calm, relaxed state of mind.

People always ask me how to know if what they're doing is right or not. I always tell them, ''If what you're doing is right you'll get a calm and relaxed response. If what you are doing is wrong, you are going to get a nervous, afraid, fearful response. They may do what you ask them to do, but it's not what you do, it's how you do what you do that makes a positive experience or a negative experience for the horse or the monkey or the dog, or whatever you're dealing with. It's that response that tells us whether we're on the right track or not.''

We call it ''adjusting to fit the situation.'' Keep adjusting your actions until you get the reaction that you want. What we're trying to do is create peaceful, harmonious, nonviolent relationships.

Claudette: So when you're working with a child or a horse, and you've reached the place where you can't figure out the next step - you're at your wit's end, you think you've done whatever you can do - what then?

Bob: You never get to that place if you're truly using what we're talking about, because:

1. You're making the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy;

2. You're adjusting to fit the situation;

3. You're allowing them to do what they feel that they have to do until they no longer feel that they have to do it; and

4. You're doing enough to get the job done, no more than necessary and no less than necessary.

The only way that you can get to your wit's end is if you quit trying to get a new response. I tell people, ''I don't care if you think it will be dead wrong - just make an action and see what the reaction is.'' If you keep changing your actions, you'll keep seeing a change in the reaction. You'll never get to the point where it's a stalemate. You'll never get to the point that you're talking about.

Also, the last response that the horse or the child or the monkey made determines your next response. But where we get into trouble is when we do the same thing over and over - again, that's our definition of insanity.

If the response is positive, you're on the right track. If it's still negative, you're on the wrong track. But keep changing. That's the hardest part for a human. We're born into a world where we are constantly trying to get our environment to fit us. We want air conditioning in the summer, we want heating in the winter, we want the lakes and rivers dammed, and we want everything to fit us.

But the horse or a child, when he or she is young, is trying to adapt to fit his environment, so you have to leave him an opening. You never paint him into a corner where he doesn't have a place to go. You always put him into a position to find the opening himself. It may take a moment or two, or even an hour, to find it, but it will be right into your arms, or right where you wanted him to be.

Claudette: What about abused animals or children?

Bob: Well, abused animals are easy to change because they will immediately react in a positive way to a positive action. Humans are a little different, because a human is in a position where anytime they don't like something they can just walk away or leave. With the horse, the animal, you can hold them in there - they are in a corral and you can keep offering it to them until they say okay.

We have another concept: ''You drift with them until they stop and look at you.'' Whether it is a horse or a child. Drifting means you're just going along with what they are doing until they ask, ''Is there something else we can do.''

And then you say, ''You know I just happen to have something here we can do.''

Claudette: What would that look like with an abused horse?

Bob: Okay, say a horse is really spooky. I could put a halter on him and pitch the lead rope at him, and the first thing he's going to do is jump six feet sideways. So what I'm going to do is follow him, jumping six feet sideways. But I'm never going to stop throwing my rope at him - not throwing to hurt him - but throwing it to show him it's not going to hurt. I keep throwing it, and throwing it. After about 5 or 10 minutes, he'll stop and you can throw the rope all over him. But first he had to find out that it wasn't going to hurt. So you drifted with him and allowed him to figure it out, and then he's perfectly, 100 percent okay with it.

Now let me tell you another way that people try to do this that absolutely doesn't work.

They tie a horse up to some kind of strong post, and they throw the rope at him and the whole time they are doing this he's trying to kill himself because he can't escape. This would be like handcuffing you to a pole and throwing snakes at you, knowing that you're deathly afraid of snakes.

We have another saying: ''If it doesn't feel good to you, its not going to feel good to your child or your horse or your monkey or your dog.''

If you use the method of drifting with a super-abused animal, after 15 or 20 minutes you can throw the rope anywhere on them, and they will look at you like a cow eating corn.

With a child you also drift with them. Drifting with a child would be having a nonjudgmental approach. Everyone seems to be into judgment, fear, and intimidation. ''You're going to do this, and you're going to do it right now!'' You get tough.

We take the opposite approach with a child and say, ''I don't care if you cry all day, that's your business, not mine, but I'll be over here having Kool-Aid and cookies.'' When a child gets angry, we say, ''You can have all the anger you want, but as long as you have the anger you're not going to be joining in the activities until you're done. But you can have your anger. We want to see you get as angry as you can get. That's fine.''

What are most people telling someone that's angry?

Claudette: Quit being angry.

Bob: And the more they tell them to quit being angry, the more they stay angry.

Claudette: They might stay angry, but they might conform.

Bob: They might conform, but the way they conform is all wrong. They conform out of fear, and they might be thinking where they can find a knife, or a gun.

Our method says, okay be angry. Have your ''angry.'' Be as angry as you can be. But we're going to be over here watching TV, eating cookies, or having fun.

You have to be creative, and come up with a thousand ways to do things. Find out what the child is interested in and use those things. We are trying to educate people that it can be done in a peaceful way. I tell parents, ''As soon as we fix you, your child will be okay.'' We give them new methodologies to work with.

Claudette: This has been a terrific conversation! Is it okay if we tell people how to get in touch with you?

Bob: Sure. You bet.

Bob Allen's email address is: savvyhorse@iopener.net. He can be reached by phone at 254-592-3227.

Top of Page Print Version